May 2002

Subject: arte
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 01:48:26 EDT
From: Elzapper@aol.com
To: almalopez@earthlink.net

I just found your site. I enjoyed your pieces very much. Being an artist myself I see why you have stirred up some emotions. Good you've done your job beautifully. I know it's hard to step out of the box. The box some of the Gente try to force you into. Being a trend setter isn't easy nor is being an Artista. Trying new mediuas and use of our Razas symbols is extremely important. If we as artists are'nt progressing neither will our Gente. Lead the way even if you have to drag some of La Gente kicking and screaming. They will Thank You later. I know I do. Muchas Gracis!

 

Subject: AztlanNet: BEYOND THE IDEOLOGICAL CACCOON
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 12:30:56 EDT
From: Sedeno7@aol.com
Reply-To: AztlanNet@yahoogroups.com
To: AztlanNet@yahoogroups.com
CC: PochNostra@aol.com, cycocat3@juno.com     

The phenomenon of this listserve called AztlanNet@yahoogroups.com provides for communication for all sorts of things, and the exchange of ideas and information. And given the instantaneous power one has over it in the "Delete" clik, individuals need not feel threatened by those communications as being "pushed", "foisted", "proselytized", or that anything is compulsory to include in his or her belief system.
      

Useful to me was a posting a year ago by cycocat3  titled "Ain't nothing like the real thing", information about new studies done on the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and which led me to the book A Handbook on Guadalupe, Park Press, Inc. 1997.   The content of this book, on a cosmic level, intrigues me, and also its references to the Image's symbology which is found to be more Nahuatl in character rather than Byzantine, i.e. how the tilma functioned as a "divine codex" which spoke to the Mexica, and inspired devotion,  before the Catholic hierarchy realized it and usurped the image for its own political agenda, political entanglements by Christianity being one of its major errors over the centuries.

On this listserve I have debated a Chicano ideology that seeks to repudiate the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe as a Catholic and European invention, a "colonizing" instrument, as Alma Lopez put it,  and only of cultural and secular significance in the life of Chicanas and Chicanos.  Roberto Rodriguez of XColumn seems to be a voice for this ideology; (Re Proselytization) his columns can also be said to be proselytizing his belief in a non-European theoquest and racial history, XColumn issuing a posting about "the Sacred Feminine" supporting this ideology.

 Let their voices be heard in this forum.

For me a problem emerged when a powerful cutural institution called the Museum of New Mexico attempted to validate a secularization of the Guadalupe image, and other religious forms, such as the Penitente chapel, presenting anti-traditional imagery, such as an altar on which the tabernacle was replaced by a computer and keyboard, and suggesting this as a development of Hispanic tradition.   This I felt was an error, an intellectual fraud about Hispanic tradition,  which I have addressed in this and other forums.   Unfortunately, my message has been construed as a call for censorship when my has intent has only been educational.   At any rate, the Museum retained its power, and the only modification to its CyberArte exhibit was the Museum's own censorship, removal of the "interactive component" sign soliciting "ofrendas" for its computer-altar visual contraption in the exhibit.

Like the info in A Handbook on Guadalupe, I find other cosmic and spiritually innovative information in sources such as A Course in Miracles, The Power of Now, and the Urantia Book.   The universal viability of concepts in them ring as truth to me, beautiful and fascinating, albeit somewhat wild and wierd to some.   But I dare to refer to them because they affirm my spiritual right to seek truth in whatever source, even if not in line with maintream Christianity or mainstream Chicano ideology.  And I will not apologize for my fascination and enthusiasm for sharing this enlightening information  in this forum to Chicanos who, as is their spiritual right, choose to close their minds to it, and seek truth in other sources.   As A Course in Miracles says "what is real cannot be threatened".   The "delete" button still is there, an a physical level;  on a spiritual level, the Mystery Monitor within never fails.

Subject: Re: AztlanNet: Digest Number 788
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 16:58:59 EDT
From: XColumn@aol.com
Reply-To: AztlanNet@yahoogroups.com
To: AztlanNet@yahoogroups.com

TO: AZTLANNET READERS
AS MOST OF US KNOW, THE INTERNET HAS MANY GREAT ASPECTS TO IT, YET THERE ARE MANY DOWNSIDES. THE BIGGEST DOWNSIDE IS THERE APPEAR TO BE FEW STANDARDS.
PLEASE READ BELOW... TAKEN DIRECTLY FROM:

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 12:30:56 EDT
From: Sedeno7@aol.com

Subject: BEYOND THE IDEOLOGICAL CACCOON

On this listserve I have debated a Chicano ideology that seeks to repudiate the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe as a Catholic and European invention, a "colonizing" instrument, as Alma Lopez put it, and only of cultural and secular significance in the life of Chicanas and Chicanos.
Roberto Rodriguez of XColumn seems to be a voice for this ideology; (Re Proselytization) his columns can also be said to be proselytizing his belief in a non European theoquest and racial history, XColumn issuing a posting about "the Sacred Feminine" supporting this ideology. Let their voices be heard in this forum.

TO HAVE AN INTELLECTUAL DISCUSSION, THERE ARE MINIMAL EXPECTATIONS. THIS LIST SERV SHOULD ENCOURAGE READERS WHO ARE GOING TO MAKE CLAIMS ABOUT PEOPLE TO AT LEAST USE QUOTES.
AS I'VE NOTED BEFORE, THIS PERSON APPEARS TO HAVE AN OBSESSION WITH THIS SUBJECT ... BELIEVING THAT IF HE KEEPS BRINGING IT UP, SOMEHOW HE WINS. (THE POINT OF HIS POSTS APPEARS TO BE TO DRAW PEOPLE INTO HIS OBSESSION. HE AND BUT ONE OTHER PERSON SEEM TO BE ENGAGED IN THIS NON-DEBATE... I DON'T SEE ANYONE ELSE SUBSTANTIVELY RESPONDING TO HIS POSTS).
WHEN WE WRITE IN PUBLIC, ALL PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO COMMENT.
PEOPLE EVEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO MISINTERPRET AND TO DRAW FALSE CONCLUSIONS.
YET, THERE IS BUT ONE EXPECTATION WHEN MAKING CLAIMS (UNSUBSTNATIATED OR OTHERWISE)...
PLEASE QUOTE...

SINCERELY
ROBERTO RODRIGUEZ

Subject: AztlanNet: XColumn's double-standard
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 20:43:17 EDT
From: Sedeno7@aol.com
Reply-To: AztlanNet@yahoogroups.com
To: AztlanNet@yahoogroups.com

This is a comment on Roberto Rodriguez's post 5/11, Digest #788

A few months ago, XColumn posted column titled "The Evolving Xicano culture", asking rhetorical questions such as "who are our elders? what are our symbols? what are our sacred fires?"      
Rather than just humor Rodriguez in his rhetorical la-la land, I have challenged the FACT of a controversial definition of Hispano and/or Xicano culture put out by the cultural institution Museum of New Mexico called "CyberArte".   
In defense of the Museum's statement, which included Alma Lopez's "Our Lady", XColumn posted in this forum a column referent to "the Sacred Feminine".   I contested several conclusions in this column with a posting titled "The Idolization of Raquel Salinas".   XColumn never responded to the points I raised.
Similarly, when debate emerged again on this topic this year between Roberto and I, I contested various points he had made, e.g.  his insistence that I called for censorship of the flawed definitions of culture and tradition in the CyberArte show.
 Another Rodriguez conclusion I rejected as false was his sweeping generalization that the Catholics' protest in Santa Fe of The Museum show  was a manifestation of the anti-Mexican hatred he experienced on issues in Albuquerque.   AGAIN, no response from XColumn.  
I have made an issue about the Museum of New Mexico's intellectual fraud , i.e. presenting something that is anti-traditional as something that is a development of tradition.  Let Rodriguez call it an "obsession" if you will, but it is my hope that the Museum does not continue repeating its errors and misrepresenting not only cultural tradition, but also religion. .  I have challenged XColumn's alignment with the Museum.  It seems XColumn resents a challenge to his position in the controversy, yet will not step up to debate it.
Since the definition by the Museum used religious material, religion has been a natural part of the debate of it.   And granted, as a religionist, I have extended a small part of my studies on the subject as a view on various discussions in this forum.
 So too, XColumn has presented his views on the "sacred", even as recently as this weekend in which la Virgen was mentioned as part of memory of tradition passed on by our mothers.  Last December, XColumn made a call for prayers with its column.  It appears XColumn desires a double standard in this forum whereby XColumn should be the only voice as to what is "sacred" in our culture and traditions?    Chale! XColumn wishes to dismiss this as a "non-debate" that is passe',  unwillinging to defend against challenges to the rhetoric he posts.  He asks questions such as "What are our symbols? what are our sacred fires?', evidently only as intellectual filler, desiring to be the only one to answer his own questions?  
Rodriguez states that he doesn't see "anyone else substantively responding" to my posts.  I guess we are all tontos in this forum except for Roberto.    There has been response to my posts, in the long run, I believe healthy discussion. .  Oddly, to XColumn's postings  there is never any response, substantive or otherwise, except maybe an occasional word of praise for the literary ventures he advertises in this forum.

Sincerely,
Pedro Romero Sedeño   mfa

 

Subject: AztlanNet: XColumn's moral double-standard
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 13:33:27 EDT
From: Sedeno7@aol.com
Reply-To: AztlanNet@yahoogroups.com
To: AztlanNet@yahoogroups.com

Re:  Digest Number 792 and RE: Sedeno7@aol.com

POST: Subject:XColumn's double-standard Roberto Rodriguez expresses concern re moral center within governmental institutions.

Last year, a state cultural institution, the Museum of New Mexico, in its Museum of International Folk Art, exhibits an installation with a computer on an altar in a chapel-like setting and calls the show "CyberArte: Tradition meets Technology".  OK, Hispanic tradition of folk art, Catholic Penitente (manito) in origin, meets Technology.
 

A source for this tradition is found in the tabernacle on an altar, the enshrining of deity-spirit, and what does the Museum do?  replaces it with a god-damn machine! a computer! and calls this "cultural changes", i.e. a development of manito or Hispano tradition?>    

I call it cultural amnesia, and Rodriguez says I am a censor. Ok, I'll shut up, but tell me, Roberto,. What does a computer enshrined on an altar in a state museum mean, oh evaluator of government morality?

Rodriguez continues to hide his head in the sand about this Museum intellectual fraud, and systematically shies away from debate about this museum statement about our culture and his position aligned with the Museum.  Included in the intellectual fraud is the Frankenstein Guadalupe, a digital re-mix which is anti-the Guadalupan tradition, sexualizing an icon of a spiritual Matriarch of the gente, a digital image which the Museum prints on 11,000 invitations and distributes throughout the state of NM,  and Rodriguez now whines about "the imposition of spirituality".   Never mind an institutional imposition of spirituality (or parody of it) imposed on many raza of NM and Mexico, and to boot, they, as taxpayers, had to pay for it!   If you were disturbed by the clamor here in NM about it, don't even comtemplate what would happen if the Frankenstein Guadalupe was museumated in Mexico City.  (According to XColumnm logic, those Mexicans would be displaying anti-Mexican sentiments, I guess.)

Rodriguez rhetorically poses the questions (in regards "the evolving Xicano culture") "what are our symbols? what are our sacred fires?"   Roberto evidently genuflects to the Museum of New Mexico's idiotic answer, with its computer-altar contrivance.  

Ok, Roberto, let the Museum answer your rhetorical questions for you and continue to speak for you since you won't defend your stance. .    
               
 As an artist with a little bit of education, I  voice my belief that  the Museum is in error, and also it's celebrity artist.   And if you continue to insist I am advocating censorship, enough double-standards, let's see some "quotes", Roberto.

If Roberto Rodriguez of XColumn has time to post "pobre yo, the victim of proselytization" rants, then maybe he might have time to debate some of these issues?.

-Pedro Romero Sedeño   mfa

Subject: AztlanNet: Chicanos in Search of E.T. Intelligence
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 13:17:46 EDT
From: Sedeno7@aol.com
Reply-To: AztlanNet@yahoogroups.com
To: AztlanNet@yahoogroups.com

The recent dialogue or project about a Mecha-S.E.T., Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, is an effort of scientific discovery, using the technological tools of advancing civilization.  In the evolution of our planet, science is indeed an important source for knowledge of the cosmos, and maybe future knowledge of other beings or "aliens" that may inhabit it, of which SET is part of that effort.    
Another source for such knowledge can be found in religious and/or mystical experience. In Chicano culture, there are some who believe in the apparition of an "extraterrestrial intelligence" known as Guadalupe-Tonantzin.  A dialogue in February on this listserve compared non-belief and belief in these apparitions between two Chicanoa artists, respectively Alma Lopez and Pedro Romero.  As to information to the relationship of the apparitions to cosmic and interplanetary intelligence,  analysis was examined of the pictorial imprint of such on cactus-fiber material, i.e. the Tilma,  referenced from the recent book A Handbook on Guadalupe, Park Press Inc., 1997.
      
      Criticism has bounced around on this list because another source of knowledge of "extraterrestrial intelligence", the Urantia Book, 1955, is also referred to and quoted.  Notwithstanding that the book presents information about the cosmos, such as a paper titled "Government on a Neighboring Planet",  or papers about the visitation and ministry of alien beings, e.g. the Material Son and Daughter (an order of being sent to all inhabited worlds, and which their evolving mortal races encounter; ours were named Adam and Eve 25,000 years ago), or of an alien being of the order Paradise Creator Son or Michaelson, aka Jesus Christ Michael, knowledge of this extraterrestrial intelligence is summarily dismissed by some members of this list, Efforts are made to marginalize the info as "cultist", "proselytized", or, absurdly, "mainstream-Christian".
I wonder as to the psychology behind this marginilization on this lista.  Is it standard secular rule, a "let's keep it strictly scientific" mindset, or is it possibly a Chicano "chosen people" ideology which seeks to keep this list a forum for only "intelligence" that has a Chicano-pedigreed-source of reference.?   

Subject: solidaridad
Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 17:29:05 -0700
From: "Harryette Mullen" <mullen@humnet.ucla.edu>
To: <almalopez@earthlink.net>

Querida Alma,
 
I like the intellectual and political energy of your work and I admire your courageous spirit. You're not afraid to make art that provokes thought and passionate discussion. As an African American writer, I also commend you for your collaboration with Noni Olabisi through Homegirl Productions.
 
I've seen smaller reproductions of your work at SPARC, and I ran across your website while searching for information on arts organizations. I'd also seen your work in the "Just a Poster?" show at UCLA, and I'm familiar with your image of "Our Lady" in the rose bikini. Although I attended Catholic schools, I'm not a Catholic; but it seems to me that your work comes from a profound identification with the humanity of La Virgen de Guadalupe.
 
Your work seems to be far more engaged with the cultural significance of this religious icon than the many commercial reproductions I've seen on candles, calendars, key chains, etc., which apparently are acceptable to some people who would be offended by your thought-provoking images.
 
En solidaridad,
Harryette Mullen

 

Subject: :O
Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 00:29:52 -0500
From: "Ghaurto Franco" <Ghaurto@hotmail.com>
To: <almalopez@earthlink.net>

no mames con esa foto de la vigen!! eso es pura mierda!!

Subject: Your beautiful work
Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 11:13:38 -0700
From: "Annie Kuznicki" <akuznicki@home.com>
To: <almalopez@earthlink.net>Dear Alma,
 
I am so glad that I took the time to browse through my excite.ca homepage this morning.  I am happy to have discovered your work.  The virgin piece is ABSOLUTLY BEAUTIFUL !!!  I salute your efforts to keep the discusion open and to assert your right to display your creativeness.  It is important for each of us to have a voice to express and a space to express it.  To me the butterfly symbolizes transformation and, "is akin to the air.  It is the mind, and the ability to know the mind or to change it.  It is the art of transformation." (SAMS & CARSON, Medicine Cards).  I noticed the butterfly in your work and hope that your piece can bring about a transformation in people's view on self-expression, the body, women, artists, and art.
 
Thank you, Alma for your beautiful expression and remember to stay true to yourself. No matter how dark the path may be at times, it always leads to light. I practise meditation and am studing to be a yoga teacher. One of the many lessons I have learned this year is to not take things personally.  Though it may seem at times that people are personally attacking you (through words or actions) their anger, violence, or support has nothing to do with you personally.  Your work may have triggered emotions of happiness, strength, empowerment, discomfort, anger, or shock - remember that those emotions were all ready there in the person before your work was on display and this is just how they are choosing to display this emotion, it is their emotion - healthy or not it is not for anyone to judge, it is simple an expression. 

Stay true to yourself and ride the wave of expression.
 
Namaste,
 
Nathalie Turmeau
Richmond, BC, Canada